WEEK 237--casual chat with Neil--Tokyo craft beer over the years( Part2/2)

 

Second & final part of a recent chat with Neil- the man visting & writting about Tokyo craft beer places via Tokyo Beer Drinker blog( turned website) since 2012.

继续和Neil的聊天记：-

6) What are some of your observations on imported craft beer scene in Japan over the years?
To be honest, it’s not something I pay a lot of attention to. I am a big Belgian beer fan, but I don’t drink that much Belgian beer in Japan as somehow it jut doesn’t feel as much fun. Of course, sometimes it’s a nice luxury, particularly if my football team has just smashed a local rival and we have an Orval to celebrate. The import scene is dominated by US beer and there are some great places to drink imports in Japan but I don’t go to them so often. I think a lot of people get caught up in the mindset that because it’s imported it must mean it’s delicious. In the course of my time living here there have been plenty of British breweries that have been imported that I would never have drunk in the UK. I think given that there is a lot of competition for imports now, the care people take when importing has improved. Long gone are the days when one unnamed importer’s motto was ‘I want this beer to be the most expensive beer in Japan’ and didn’t bother about bringing it over in a refrigerated container. The only concern was selling it at a high price. Perhaps not a shock they don’t import anymore!

6）这些年来对日本进口啤酒市场状况有什么样的观察？

虽然个人是比利时啤酒的拥趸但坦白说并不关注日本进口啤酒，也很少在日本喝比利时啤酒。进口市场最多的是美国酿坊作品，有不少人觉得既然是进口啤酒那就一定很好喝，实际上这些年来不少进口的英国酿坊啤酒是我在英国期间不会找来喝的。

总的来说近年日本进口啤酒情况比起最初大有改善，至少不会再出现像以前有一家进口商是以卖“全日本最贵啤酒” 为唯一目标而连啤酒需要冷链进口最基本需求都不懂。

7) Is there any particular overseas breweries which you wish available in Japan?

I think the import market is pretty full already so not sure there would be any room for any new breweries. And as I mentioned above pricing is becoming an issue recently so even if I thought about what brewery’s beers I’d love to be able to drink more, it’s unlikely that I’d be able to afford them.

7）有期待什么外国酿坊作品能出现在日本市场的？

感觉现在市场上进口啤酒已呈饱和状态，价格也开始变成一个难题，就算有个人想喝的价格也可能让情况变得无以为继。

8) What might be the Japanese breweries which you would recommend to those new to the local scene?

I guess it depends on what you’re looking for. Shiga Kogen and Minoh are well established breweries with solid reputations who combine their standard beers with some interesting and more experimental beers. I think they are always pretty consistent. When it comes to less well known breweries, I drink a lot of TK Brewing and wish I could drink more 2nd Story beers. I’m sure I’m forgetting some important names here, but those are the ones that are jumping out to me right now.
There are a few breweries who people love who seem to pretty much just make hazy IPAs and sell them for ridiculous prices. I won’t mention their names as they don’t need any more publicity and I’m sure most people know who I’m talking about anyway. But needless to say, as far as I’m concerned, don’t believe the hype!

8）对不熟悉日本市场新朋友有推荐的在地酿坊吗？

主要看想要找什么类型风格作品，志贺高原（Shiga Kogen/长野）和箕面(Minoh/大阪）是作品水准很稳定的两家早期成立酿坊，常态款之外也有些实验性作品。此外，个人喝过不少TK Brewing（川崎）作品，也希望能喝到更多2nd Story（德岛）啤酒，这些都是即时想到的几家，感觉肯定还有遗漏的。

日本酿坊中有几家是似乎都只在做类果汁印度淡啤 (Hazy IPA) 的，很受市场追捧，不过个人感觉有过誉和价位过高之嫌。

9) Is craft beer something easy to approach or one do need some study/ research to get closer to?

I think it would be a sad thing if you needed to study before drinking a beer so I’d say just jump right in. After all, reading about beer is a bit like dancing to a sculpture in that you might not be appreciating it in the way it was intended. And also there’s no need to study because in most bars there’s always someone ready to tell you how much they know about beer whether you asked them or not.

9）craft beer是平易近人还是需要做些功课才能接近？

如果喝啤酒需要先做功课的话那会有点让人伤感，直接开喝就是了，只是阅读不能让味蕾真正体会啤酒风味表现，况且有时在酒吧/瓶子店无论是不是提问总会遇到热情想要自动“倾力教学”的啤迷。

10) What would you say to those very new or trying craft beer for the first time?

Try as many different beers and styles as you can and make up your own mind about what you like. There are no right or wrong answers. Some beers which I think are horrible are loved by other people. No-one’s opinion is correct as it’s all subjective and a matter of taste. In Japan many people like to follow the buzz and drink things and go to places that are getting publicity. If this is interesting to you, go ahead and follow too. But at the same time, if you prefer going to somewhere that fashionable people don’t go to and drink something that has been available for years, you should do that.

10）对刚接触craft beer新人有什么要说的？

尽量多尝试不同类型风格後就能找到合适自己口味的啤酒，实际上没有对错，比如个人觉得糟糕的别人可能很喜欢，都是个人口味决定所以没有绝对。在日本不少人喜欢跟随风潮和社交媒体热度而去特定的“潮牌”酒吧，不过也有人反其道而行去存在已久不是潮流关注点的酒吧。

11) To those who think craft beer is no different from Macro ?

Clearly they’re wrong. Craft Beer is a lot more expensive! Hehe. I think people from both sides of the argument would both say that their preferred type of beer is more delicious / more skillfully made but I don’t think you can definitively say that about either macro or craft beer. For me the use of the phrase ‘Craft Beer’ is an important issue. I don’t think macro brewers should be allowed to use it as there is more to Craft Beer than the product being ‘crafted’. I don’t want to drink macro beer because I think it is important to support small businesses in these days where a few huge companies are dominating many aspects of our lives. I would never say that every craft beer will taste better than every macro beer because clearly that’s not going to be true. But I will say that if a craft beer is available I would probably drink it over a macro because I don’t think the macros need my support or business.

11） 对那些觉得craft beer和大厂啤酒没区别的人有什么说？

这看法肯定是错的，因为craft beer要贵得多！两者之间可能会各说各话觉得自己喝的比较对味。

个人觉得craft beer名称/定义是很重要的，大厂啤酒公司不应该被允许使用因为并不符合craft定义要求。个人不会选择喝大厂啤酒是觉得更应该支持小型酿坊/小生意，虽然并不是所有craft beer就一定更好喝但只要有得选就一定会喝 craft beer因为大厂不需要我的生意。

12) craft beer is still a business hence it's inevitable bars or bottle shop might ceased to exist, is there any particular ones which you are fond of (or otherwise)which no longer there?

I’ve just had a look through eight pages of places on my website that are now closed and to be honest, I don’t think that there’s anything in the list that makes me particularly sad that it’s gone. Like you said, it’s a business so it’s no surprise that places come and go. But it is sad when you consider that many closed places represent someone’s dream having gone up in smoke. I think in the past it was more significant as we didn’t have as much choice. But now you could probably drink in a different craft beer bar in Tokyo every day of the year without having to repeat. Maybe I’m lucky in that none of my real favourites have closed yet, but I’m sure it’s only a matter of time.

12）craft beer也是一门生意，酿坊或酒吧会有来去，有没有哪家已结业店家是让人遗憾或怀念的？

刚看过8页已闭店的酒吧/品饮室，并没有特别让人觉得遗憾的，就像你说的，生意有来有去，不过如果一家店代表的是某人的理想破灭那就有点伤感。在以前酒吧瓶子店品饮室不多的年代一家店的结业会显得举足轻重，不过如今东京及周边酒吧多到可能换着喝一年都不必重复。或许是幸运的至今个人关注/喜欢的店家都在运行中，但也不知道是不是可以一直存在或是说不准哪一天就突然结业了。

WEEK 236--casual chat with Neil--Tokyo craft beer over the years (PART1/2)

 

This though is on the newspaper column but it's more of a casual chat with geek friend than any sort of "serious or in-depth talk" about Neil's view on what he has seen & felt over the past 12 years or so living/drinking/blogging about craft beer places in and around Tokyo.

Neil是2013年认识的第一位住东京陌生人啤迷，出发前想对当地craft beer状况找概念然后搜寻到了当时以blog形式运行的Tokyo Beer Drinker网站，就这样从陌生人变成每次到东京都会见面喝酒聊天的朋友，以下是近期和Neil的聊天概要：-(篇幅所限-分为上下篇）

*As usual--English is by Neil-Mandarin is my transcripts-due to limited space of the column-the chat will be in 2 parts.

1) How did Tokyo Beer Drinker came about?  Any particular trigger point which started this?
When I moved to Japan in 2012 there wasn’t much of an English language online presence when it came to Japanese Craft Beer. I can think of one site but it was inactive and after trying to visit yet another bar they recommended that had closed down, I thought I should try to do something myself. Obviously even then, there were lots of people who wrote or posted about beer, but I think that is something that is a bit too subjective to have much impact. Unless you know the person and their taste, the recommendation of or warning to avoid a certain beer isn’t that helpful. There weren’t many places to drink craft beer in those days so the idea of making some kind of resource to tell people where those few bars that did serve craft beer were seemed achievable. But once the scene started to boom it became clear that there was no way I was going to be able to keep the site fully up to date so now the focus has shifted slightly towards more interesting places and away from trying to be comprehensive.

1）什么情况下想到写东京craft beer博客？

2012年移居东京後发现网上很少英语撰写的日本craft beer资讯，当时发现的一个英文网站已不活跃，根据网站资讯去的一家酒吧也已经结业， 当时网上也有不少啤酒相关个人观点推荐或避雷贴文但都过于主观并不适合，于是就想不如自己来写。

那时的东京专卖吧并不多，设立一个集合相关资讯让人知道哪里哪几家有craft beer喝的想法是可行的，不过随着市场情况逐渐出现变化，专卖吧品饮室瓶子店数量大幅度增加後，一人之力明显已不可能做到巨细无遗，近年关注点偏向探访较有特质有趣味的酒吧，不再试图做到全方位探索/记录。

2) During the time were there any particular moment which make you think "why am I still writing?"
All the time! I’ve met some nice people who have reached out to me over the years and some people have been very generous when it came to buying me beers as a thank you for my site. But when I check the amount of people who are reading the posts but who don’t interact in any way it becomes a bit disheartening. I totally understand that nowadays everything has become devalued. We now live in a world where people expect music to be something they get for free for example, so I get it when people don’t use my donation button or even contact me to say thanks for the resource. But I think in the many years I have the PayPal donation button I’ve had not more than five donations. Obviously I don’t do it for the money, and have refused to put advertising on the site as I want it to be impartial, but although visiting bars is a lot of fun, it is a money and time intensive hobby, so sometimes when I visit a new brewery that I think is probably not going to be great just to put it on the site, I do wonder if I could be doing something more important instead!

2）从开始至今有没有过“为什么还在写”的想法？

这些年来遇到不少通过博客/网站联系的人，也有请喝酒以示谢意的人，不过有时候看到访问网站但从不互动的人数时会感到有点泄气。

我了解这是个很多东西都被低估甚至被视为免费的时代，比如很多人理所当然的觉得音乐是不用付费的，所以能理解一些网站使用者从不联系或致谢，实际上网站设置的“乐捐” 按钮这些年来只被按过5次，的确网站不是为了赚钱而做，为了保持中立也拒绝广告植入，不过要知道的是探访酒吧酿坊品饮室都是花钱花时间的事，所以有时探访新酿坊但预感很可能不会精彩时，会想是不是应该把时间花在其他更重要事物上。

3) It's been more than 10 years of writing about visits to craft beer places in Japan, what are some of your observations over the years?
Of course now there are A LOT more places! This seems like it would be a good thing, and I’d agree that mostly this is the case.  Certainly Craft Beer has become a lot easier to drink. At the same time, I think there are many bars that don’t offer anything new or original or even offer something with a little bit of soul. With its increasing popularity, Craft Beer has become a viable business opportunity for some people, and when I visit a bar and the overwhelming impression I get is that I’m getting rinsed for my money it’s quite depressing. At the same time though, there are many wonderful little places who might not offer anything out of the ordinary when it comes to beer selection but offer loads of atmosphere and finding one of these places makes everything worthwhile. Over the last two years I’ve been slowly making my way to all of the cities, towns and villages that make up Tokyo, (there are a lot!), and it has taken me to some places I never would have been to otherwise and some very unique bars. In the past I think if somewhere was a ‘Craft Beer Bar’ that would be enough for people to head in its direction. Now I think there has to be a bit more passion or consideration in what they are offering. Quite a lot of the old places that seemed very exciting when I started writing the blog seem to have not moved with the times and are getting left behind.

3）写了超过十年东京和日本其他地方的craft beer探寻文後有什么观察？

最明显的是酒吧瓶子店数量比以前多了很多，craft beer变得更容易接触到，这是好事。不过也意味着这是一门可行的生意，一些酒吧完全不提升酒单选择，也有酒吧让人感觉在设法让人掏更多钱，这是让人气馁的现象。

还好的是东京和周边地区还是能找到很有氛围/感觉的酒吧，近两年来去了不少归纳为东京周边地区的城镇乡区，也发现一些很有自家特色的小酒吧，如果说早期只要是专卖吧就值得一去，如今则需看酒吧对酒单的专注和热忱。实际上也有一些当初开始写博客时让人感觉惊喜的酒吧多年来停滞不前感觉已跟不上时代变化。

4) Is craft beer becoming more popular / commonly accepted with more noticeable Japanese locals breweries coming to the scene?
Yes, as I mentioned above, there is an ongoing explosion of new bars and breweries. Even the pandemic and lockdown period didn’t really stop the wave of new places opening. It did kill off quite a few bars though, which is obviously a shame. But I think it’s a lot easier to survive if you’re offering something different. With this increase in new breweries and places, I think the awareness of Craft Beer is also growing. Many of the major breweries in Japan have ‘Craft’ beer lines now and I wish they weren’t allowed to use that language to describe their products but I think this is something that bothers me more than it bothers most people. Also at the moment the yen is very weak so I guess this means it’s not as easy to import things to Japan. Imports have always been an important part of the beer scene here but I wonder if the prices of imports might be affecting their popularity. One slight problem I have is Japanese breweries who seem to think they should sell their beers at import prices because they are the same kind of beer styles. I tend to avoid these breweries as they just seem to be taking the piss.

4）近几年更多日本在地酿坊的出现意味着craft beer更为人知被更多人接受了？

的确，近期新酒吧和新酿坊涌现就说明了情况，就算是新冠疫情期间虽然有关闭的但也有新店开设，这些新开设的酒吧/瓶子店一定程度上让更多人认识craft beer。实际上日本一些大厂也看到这个趋势而开设自身的所谓craft品牌产品，个人来说觉得大厂不应该被允许使用上述字眼以免混淆视听。此外，日圆汇率的疲弱也可能在某些程度上影响进口外国酿坊啤酒的售价并导致销量受影响，个人也对一些日本在地酿坊以进口啤酒价格为自家同类型风格啤酒定等同价位的做法不认同。

5) As a craft beer drinker, what is it like drinking in Japan in terms of  beer styles /varieties /quality /price point?

In the first boom of craft beer in Japan, before I came here, plenty of breweries opened with a kind of German template. So it’s long been the case that Pilsners, Weizens, Alts etc. were everywhere. Plenty of these breweries still exist and are still doing the same thing. The quality of these places varies considerably but I have to say I always enjoy visiting them. And with some of these styles becoming more fashionable recently some of these breweries are finding themselves in a great position. Around the time I arrived more modern styles were becoming popular. Of course the US scene is so big that I think every country’s scene has been influenced by it. But I think plenty of Japanese breweries took on these imported styles and put their own twist on them which is something I’ve always been a fan of. I’m not a fan of hazies, so I’m slightly disappointed that the Japanese scene has embraced them so much and for so long, but I guess this is unavoidable. Nowadays, I’d say that there are plenty of styles available, with a decent amount of breweries who are trying to do something interesting, but plenty of other breweries who aren’t particularly. I think some foreign residents of Japan look down on Japanese beers and I think this is hugely patronising. On recent visits to the UK and to Belgium I’ve had beers by breweries that people had talked up and I thought they just weren’t as good as similar ones being made in Japan. Of course there are some dodgy beers being made here, but I think some people’s oversimplification of Japanese stuff automatically being inferior to imported stuff is nonsense.
As for price, I think this is starting to become a problem. Not a problem for visitors due to the weak yen, but for people who live here, Craft Beer is becoming even more of a luxury than it was before. I don’t know if the bubble is going to burst soon, but it’s definitely becoming more difficult for me to afford and justify the prices some places are asking. Sure, maybe your brewery spent a lot of money on the image and the labels and the decor of the taproom so you charge a lot, but if the beer isn’t very good, you’re just going to be shooting yourself in the foot as people will wise up sooner or later.

5）对日本在不同类型风格啤酒/质素/价格的感受是什么？

移居东京前，日本在地酿坊主要以德式啤酒风格为模仿对象，德式淡啤/小麦啤酒是主流，时至今日不少德式风格酿坊/酒吧还继续存在而且随着近年类似风格的流行让这些酿坊/酒吧重回焦点。

美式啤酒类型风格对craft beer界的影响毋庸置疑，不少日本酿坊也吸收了美式影响并化为己用，这是个人欣赏的，不过对近年非常流行的类果汁印度淡啤(Hazy IPA)也广受日本酿坊酒吧和喝酒人欢迎倒是觉得有点出乎意料。

日本不同类型风格作品很多但被有些常住的外国人轻视，这是相对偏见，不久前去了英国和比利时喝到一些被追捧的酿坊作品但感觉日本的相同类型作品更对味，所以一些认为进口啤酒一定比日本在地啤酒优秀是过于片面的错误看法，

至于价格方面，对游客来说由于日圆汇率疲弱这不是问题，但对常住当地的却是个难题，跟多年前对比craft beer已逐渐变成一种奢侈消费。