This post is slightly more "complicated" than the usual post--there's the "ORIGINAL" chit chat version in English with Carl--then there's a Translated version sent together with the "Ori" from Beijing--and then there's obviously the Chinese newspaper version written by me for the bi-weekly column.
I have decided to post all "3" version--especially the Translated Mandarin version from Beijing--there's obvious differences in choice of words--as well as style of writing/speaking even though it's essentially the same language--mainland China and those outside.
Let's starts with the NEWSPAPER COLUMN version--please SCROLL DOWN for ENGLISH ORIGINAL chat version( including Beijing Chinese translated version)
对话—北京大跃酿坊CARL SETZER
近年Craft Beer在中国逐步受到较多注意，有需求就有供应情况下，不少人都投入到“精酿啤酒”这一块，无论是想方设法引入“水货”的，又或是开酿坊/酿吧的都有，市场摸索前进中。
不同地方在推进Craft Beer文化发展时都面对不同问题，中国“精酿”圈内发生着什么样的变化？“顽啤主张”跟已在亚洲生活超过十年的北京大跃酿坊（Great Leap）主创酿酒师CARL SETZER聊聊（ 国内说法，是个娶了中国媳妇的美国老外-酿坊名称来自媳妇爷爷建议，引用宋朝诗人陈舜俞“骑牛歌”其中一句《乘肥大跃须年少》）
Q：说一下开始阶段？
CARL：“90年代初，北京一家德国品牌高级酒店内设一间德国啤酒吧，2008年上海拳击猫开业，北京大跃2010年尾开始时，中国精酿圈还是非常寂静的，不只专用名词欠缺，很多业内需要东西比如酿酒原料到专用杯子等都缺乏专业供应。”
Q：大跃酿坊出现的初衷
CARL：“放弃工作，全力开设酿坊最初我们就决定要酿制体现中国美食和历史文化的啤酒，而不是复制美式或其他外国啤酒。通过使用中国本地原料/食材包括四川花椒，茶叶，香料，青岛大花等，并用历史人物命名等方式体现中国特色。”
Q：这些年发生了什么变化？
CARL：“我还记得，大跃刚开始时有很多质疑声音，说中国人只会喝进口或本土大厂啤酒，六年后的现在，国内啤酒口味选择发生了根本性变化，说中国人不会欣赏IPA的“预言者”根本就不知道自己在说什么。CRAFT 的发展基本在快步中，北京来说，跟之前比较至少多了15家新酿坊，其他地区也有新酿坊/酿吧出现着。”
“在中国，目前CRAFT 可以合法出现的方式有三，第一是有酿酒设备的酿吧，第二是吉普赛式，让有设备的酿坊代为酿制，第三是通过现有法定的灰色地带生产的“鲜啤”。现有制度对精酿发展还有所欠缺情况下，相信不用太久中国精酿市场将迎来正式牌照时代，新法制会带来新问题新机会，会是让人振奋的时机。”
Q：关于入口“水货”涌现现象
CARL：“一句话，高价卖，过期啤酒，非法引入，这些人都是混蛋，不值得支持。与此同时，一家大厂啤酒国际大公司引入收购得来美国品牌，然后以CRAFT姿态在国内市场大肆推广，误导消费者更是需要被指正的事。”
Q：理论上，越多不同类型/风格啤酒出现有助提高鉴赏力，不过，却在大陆市场造成一些混乱？
CARL：“这是个过渡期，只求最贵最炫商品的煤老板/土豪风潮会过去，同样的，饮客迟早会发现不是写着手工或精酿的啤酒一定就是好啤酒，也会逐渐发现“水货”啤酒处理不当导致的次货/死货问题。这不单纯只是消费者问题，而是结合了市场教育不足，一些媒体误导/炒作和不专业酒吧业者共同造成的现象。而其中一个改正方式就是由酿酒师酿出比已经在货架上的次货质量更好更新鲜的啤酒。”
Q：对酿吧啤酒水准看法
CARL：“就跟任何新兴市场一样，有人酿得比其他人好，总有改善/进步空间的，只要致力提升酿品水平就好。任何人都有一次机会卖出一杯啤酒，能有让饮客回头水准才是关键。”
Q：对自酿现象看法
CARL：“跟我们刚开始时相比，现在因为网购风行，更多中英文自酿教材的出现，自酿已在起飞中，只是需要更成熟的群体/态度。国内自酿存在向消费者自售啤酒现象，这是不正确的，也违背了自酿自用或与朋友分享真正意义。严格说，一旦售卖自酿啤酒，就等同于跟市场上所有专业酿酒师竞争，更必须受到相关法律同等管制。”
Q：不醉无归的说法/饮法由来已久，有因为CRAFT的出现而改变吗？
CARL：“在国内CRAFT酒吧很少看到喝到失控的饮客，大家开始了解和奉行啤酒可跟随自己节奏喝，愉悦的品饮而不是牛饮。这是让人开心的趋势。”
Q：怎么告诉新朋友为什么要喝CRAFT？
CARL：“喝CRAFT BEER基本就是在喝酿酒师和几位团队成员想为饮客酿造快乐所付出的心血，支持好啤酒，同时也要求质素变得更好。”
HERE's the ORIGINAL TEXT from the chit chat:-
Q) Briefly—why
China?—and “DA YAO” kind of sound very “old China”—how did the name came about?
A story perhaps?
I moved to
Asia right out of college and have spent the last twelve years living in China
and Taiwan. My wife is from Qufu, Shandong Province and we have a five year old
son. We also take care of her paternal grandparents as her father passed away
when she was our son’s age. The name “Da
Yue/Yao” （大跃） comes from an old Song Dynasty poem.
Although the poem has many lines, the line that references “Da Yue” is “cheng fei da yue xu nian shao (乘肥大跃须年少),” or in English, “Make sure to grasp the opportunity
to take a great leap when you are young.” It’s true meaning is that if you want
to take a big risk in your life, be sure to take that risk when you are young
and “fat,” so that if you fail you can bounce back up off the ground and get
going again. I used to have what others defined as a ‘successful’ career in the
IT security industry, and my wife also had a successful career in mining
compliance products, so when we decided to quit our salaried positions to open
a craft brewery in a small courtyard in Beijing, China, my wife’s grandfather
stated, “Fine, but if you’re going to do this, you have to call it 大跃.” There is
reason why his opinion holds more weight in my life than most other living
beings, but that is a story for another time.
我大学毕业后就来到了亚洲，在过去的12年我在台湾和中国生活。我的太太刘芳是山东曲阜人，我们有一个五岁的儿子。刘芳的父亲在她很小的时候去世了，我们也同样承担着照顾刘芳爷爷奶奶的责任。我们的品牌名字“大跃”，摘自宋朝诗人陈舜俞的《骑牛歌》。整首诗很长，其间有这样的一句“乘肥大跃须年少”。它的字面意思是“一定要趁着年轻抓住机会大幅跃进”。实际的意思是，如果你想在短暂的一生中冒一次风险，那么请一定选择自己年轻而又“心宽”（体胖）的时候去做。这样即便是失败了，依然可以全身而退然后东山再起。我曾经在一家IT公司有一份很体面的工作，我的妻子那时也在一家矿业公司做的有声有色。但是我们毅然决然地双双辞掉了高薪的工作，自己在北京的小胡同里面做起了精酿啤酒的营生。面对着这样一幕，我妻子的爷爷波澜不惊的说道：“好啊，如果你们下定决心了做这个，那就起名叫它大跃吧。”过去曾经发生过一件事，从此便让我觉得爷爷的话字字珠玑，言之凿凿。但那跟本文没什么太大关系，就此不闲述。
Q) 12 years
in China---in what way or how much has China factors influenced your beer
philosophy? Or was it the other way round?
Time flies.
Especially when half of that has been spent getting the good people of Beijing
buzzed. Six years ago, when we decided to walk away from our previous careers,
it wasn’t to open a bar, or copy something from back home, recreating American
or any other international style of craft beer in China just seemed like a
waste of an opportunity. Rather, we saw the chance to create a distinctly
Chinese craft beer and brewery that uses and honors Chinese culinary and
historical traditions as a way to show China as it should be seen, a true
originator and historic home to consumer culture. Many of our beers use Chinese
ingredients (from hops to additives, like tea, Sichuan peppercorn, spices and
adjunct sugars) and the names of our beers, in Chinese as well as English,
often reflect these same Chinese culinary and historical traditions. For
example, one of our signature beers, “Honey Ma Gold,” uses the Sichuan
Peppercorn in its production, a staple of Chinese cuisine, and honey that used
to come from Shandong Province. Its Chinese name is “甫子 fuzi.” The character - 甫 – is a reference to one of China’s most famous poet’s from
the Tang Dynasty who was living in Sichuan province, whose name was 杜甫 dufu. And the
character – 子 – is a reference to a man very
famous in the West, Confucius, whose Chinese name is 孔子 kongzi and was born in Qufu, Shandong
Province. Same birthplace in fact as Liu Fang’s grandfather. It doesn’t get
much more culturally relevant to Chinese history than Qufu. One of the many
reasons why Liu Fang’s grandfather, Liu Shao Zeng, is the shit.
时光荏苒，在过去的这些年，我们在北京认识了很多很棒的人。六年前，一开始决定辞职的时候，我们并不是一心要去开酒吧，也不是说想信手山寨些别人的东西了事，或者只是照搬一些已有的美式的或者其它国家风格的啤酒来中国，以上的这些计划我们都觉得是对当时中国精酿市场机会的一种浪费。于是乎，我们另辟蹊径，最后决意打造出独特的中国风精酿啤酒。我们的酒使用了中国传统食材中的原料，并结合中国传统历史文化为每一款酒命名，创造出完全独有而具有中国历史气息的啤酒风格。大跃多款酒都使用了地道的中国食材（从啤酒花到各种添加辅料，比如茶叶、四川花椒和各种香料等），不仅如此，我们还为它们起了中英双语的具有历史典故或直接反应食材的名字。比如，其中一款我们的招牌啤酒“甫子啤酒”，它的酿制使用了四川的花椒——一种极具代表性的中国食材，还加入了来自山东的蜂蜜。其中文名“甫子”，甫字是摘自中国唐代大诗人杜甫的名，他久居巴蜀；而子字则是来自孔子，出生地位于现山东省曲阜市。巧合的是，刘芳的爷爷也是山东曲阜人。
But when it comes to how China has
influenced the beers themselves, that is something of which we are extremely
proud. When Great Leap started in 2010 there weren’t only no other craft
breweries in Beijing or even Northeast China, the other breweries that did
exist else where laughed at us when we dedicated ourselves to the use of local
ingredients. I was told repeatedly that the Qingdao Flower Hop (QDDH:青岛大花) wasn’t worth using in craft beer
and that the Chinese palate would never want anything other than imported
products or local commercial beers. I remember thinking to myself how pathetic
that sounded. These weren’t foreigners hating on China, these were Chinese “experts”
with no faith in their own people. Now its hard not to find someone on the “support
local” bandwagon. The bigger the industry gets, the more honored we are to have
inspired people, whether directly or indirectly, to make something China can
love.
大跃一直致力于运用中国本土的原料和中式元素来创造我们的啤酒，对此我们感到非常自豪。在2010年，大跃刚开业的时候，在北京甚至整个北方区都还没有精酿啤酒吧。在北京以外的地方的一些酒吧听说我们要使用中国的原料来酿造啤酒时，他们都笑了，他们告诉我，青岛大花不值得用来酿酒，而且中国人的口味只喜欢进口啤酒和寡淡的工业啤酒。我还记得，我当时听到这些话的时候觉得挺可悲的--这是中国人对自己本土的食材和自己同胞的味蕾缺乏信心。反观现在，每个人都在高声说，“支持本土”。在这个行业变得越来越大的同时，我们感到很荣幸和开心，我们直接或间接地影响和启发了人们，对中国本土拥有的东西感到自豪。
Q) Tell us
how was the scene back then?
There really
was no scene back then. Paulaner has had a brauhaus in the Kempinksi Hotel
since the early 90s, a few imported beers had made their way into the market,
Boxing Cat Brewery had opened in 2008 in Shanghai, and Gao Yan had not yet
really found his inner Master yet in Nanjing, but otherwise there was little to
no craft beer scene when we first opened in October, 2010. To the point where
even the vocabulary for what we needed to start was not fully developed. Beer
kegs were called 啤酒小罐 instead of
啤酒桶, fluted American style beer glasses
were unheard of at local bars, hops came in two different styles, 苦味 and 香味, and malting companies wouldn’t sell you base malt in
quantities less than 100 tons. Its easy to look at Beijing now and think that
craft beer had always been here, but in reality, we created a lot of the demand
that allowed for the market to truly flourish. Statements like that usually
piss people off, but the only people that get mad are the one’s that don’t know
how hard it used to be.
其实也没有什么幕后故事。普拉那啤酒从90年代初就进驻了凯宾斯基酒店，一些进口品牌的啤酒也用自己的途径打入市场，拳击猫2008年就在上海开业了，当时高岩的“高大师”还没有完全打造出来。在2010年，精酿啤酒市场在北京几乎是一片空白，就连行业的专业词汇体系都没有。啤酒桶不叫啤酒桶而叫“啤酒小罐”；没有人见过高脚杯样的美式啤酒杯；啤酒花只分为两类叫法：苦花和香花；麦芽公司的最低起订量竟然要100吨。现在你看北京的市场，你会以为在这里精酿啤酒一直都很盛行，但是事实上，正是我们从那个时候开始几乎从零开始为这个行业打基础, 开拓行业相关的供应链，培育市场等。这么说也许会惹怒一些人，但是很多人根本不知道当时起步时的艰难。
Q) Any major
shift of taste preferences in beer styles during those 6 years?—what changes
you have noticed both in terms of supply chain and customers preferences…
In the last
six years tastes have changed dramatically. Local Chinese beer is generally
very light in flavor, and early imports tended to be of the German variety
that, although delicious, are limited in flavor profiles by the German Purity
Law enacted 500 years ago. Now people are being introduced to new flavors, from
hoppy IPA’s to full bodied, malt-balanced dark ales, and even sour ales. Our
Banana Wheat and Honey Ma Gold are still our highest sellers, but other beers
such as our Little General IPA and East City Porter have a very strong following
amongst our drinkers. The tastes overall in China have no limitations. Nothing
pisses me off more than when some self defeating dip shit says that Chinese
people will never embrace IPAs, there is nothing worse than when you
underestimate your own people. Its almost as stupid as when you read old
assessments of the potentials for American drinkers as it relates to their
ability to understand and appreciate Continental European style beers, northern
European sour beers, and British style ales. Its ignorance to underestimate
your consumer. I refuse to do it. Chinese consumers have some of the most
complex palates when it comes to dining and consumption of local cuisines. I
fully expect China to be not only a world leader in the production of craft
beer, but also the home to some of the most educated and informed drinkers.
这六年可以说在口味上发生了天翻地覆的变化。中国的本土啤酒在口味上都非常清淡，早期的进口啤酒则统统向德式啤酒靠拢，尽管好喝，但是也均受制于500年前的德国纯净法案，所以在口味多样性上有很大的瓶颈。现在好了，人们见识到越来越多的新口味啤酒，有啤酒花香浓郁的IPA，有酒体饱满、麦芽平衡的深色艾尔，甚至有酸味艾尔。大跃的香蕉小麦和甫子啤酒一直是我们的销售冠军，但是其他的酒比如少帅IPA和燕麦墨啤也都有着大量的忠实拥趸。中国 人在口味这个问题是是没有限制的。曾经有人跟我说中国人绝对不会接受什么IPA，那个时候我非常的生气。还有什么是比低估自己的同胞更愚蠢的行为。这种感觉就好像曾几何时的美国，出来一种评审标准给喝酒人士用来评判他们的能力高低，怎么判别呢？就是看他们能不能搞明白欧洲大陆啤酒、北欧酸啤酒，以及英式艾尔。低估你的顾客，这简直蠢到家了。我一直认为中国顾客在品评本土菜肴的时候能够展现出最强大的味蕾，就凭这一点，我可以预言中国不仅有成为世界一流精酿啤酒产地的能力，同时还将诞生出最具水平和认知能力的精酿饮家们。
Q) Give us
an outline of how’s the craft beer scene been in China lately—say the last 5
years?
We started
in October of 2010, so it is almost 6 years since we first opened. Since then,
in Beijing alone, we have seen almost 15 other craft breweries open up of
varying sizes and production level. This does not include the craft breweries
of other places of China, either. Yes, things are moving a bit faster here.
Like Taiwan and Japan, China is an emerging market in the world economy. This
means that a lot of people are moving here, coming to visit, coming to study
abroad, etc. Because of this, new trends and styles will be quick to both
emerge and permeate. Remember, there are 1.4 billion people in China versus the
roughly 300 million Americans. Not to mention a refreshing vacuum of religious
prohibition to the consumption of alcohol. Every time I walk outside with a
beer in my hand in America I’m reminded how arcane and irrational our drinking
laws are there. China has none of the preconception of what it means to drink
and consume alcohol socially.
大跃在2010年10月开业，也就是说我们已经混迹江湖快整6年了。这段时间里，就北京一个城市而言，我们就已经看到有差不多15家各式不同规模和技术能力的精酿啤酒坊进入了市场。这个数字还不包括中国其他城市的同行业者。没错，发展真的有点快啊。就像当年的台湾和日本一样，中国是世界经济体中的一个新兴市场。这就是说会有越来越多的人移居这里，来访问的，来学习的，等等吧。正因如此，越来越多的新趋势和新风尚也会在这里快速地生根发芽。还有一点是，中国有14亿人，而美国只有3亿。且不提那些因为宗教禁令不能喝酒的人群。每次我在美国举着啤酒杯溜达的时候都会慨叹这个国家的很多饮酒规矩是多么陈旧和不合理。而中国人对于喝酒这件事来说真的是百无禁忌的。
Currently in
China, there are only three legal ways to grow a craft beer brand. The first is
the brewpub model that allows for the installation of equipment on site inside
of a commercial retail space, and gives the proprietor the ability to brew
beer, grain to glass, inside their own establishment for the consumption of
their consumers. There are different interpretations of this model, like the
Boxing Cat Brewery model where they brew offsite and onsite and then bring it
in on a linear distribution model to their own restaurants and bars, and then
there is the Great Leap model where the equipment is located inside multiple
locations and then cross distributed to the other locations. No matter what model
you subscribe to, as long as the means of production and the end points are all
owned by the same company, China is happy.
目前在中国，有三种途径可以合法地经营一个精酿品牌。
第一种是前店后厂的精酿酒吧模式。这种模式是把酿造的设备放在酒吧里，从碎麦芽到酿成一杯酒供应给客人消费，都发生在这一个地方。对于这种模式，有不同的实际操作形式，像上海的拳击猫，他们在自己的店面和其他地方酿酒，然后线性供应给旗下的的餐厅酒吧；像大跃，酿酒设备在旗下不同的店面都有，然后交叉供应给大跃几个店面。无论用哪一种方式，只要是所有的生产分销环节都是同一个经营者，就不存在违反法规的问题。
The second
model is a contract brewing model, in which the beer is brewed by a larger,
third party brewery on contract and is distributed under their license. This
model has some flaws, both growth wise and in terms of quality control, but is
employed by brands like Master Gao's, Panda Brew and Slow Boat Brewery. What
you give up in terms of guarantees on the quality of the product, you make up
for in the ability to distribute to the greater market without the threat of
legal liabilities.
第二种是代工厂模式。这种模式是通过一个更大的第三方啤酒代工厂来生产和分销产品。这种形式在质量控制和发展可持续性都存在一些问题，但目前国内的“高大师”，“熊猫”，和“悠航”等品牌都在使用这种形式。这种模式在牺牲了部分对质量的把控力后，能在规避风险的情况下把酒分销到更多地方，卖给更多的人。
The third
model is what is known as a fresh beer draft exception under the commercial
brewery regulation. This allows for the sale of draft beer that is
unpasteurized. Its what I would describe as a loophole that was created to
allow for commercial beer to be distributed easier in the local regions. It is
a temporary fix to a long term need for new licensing and regulatory
compliance.
第三种模式是用“鲜啤”这个国家标准来申请生产许可证。这样的牌照可以允许销售不经巴氏灭菌的的新鲜啤酒。我认为这个是目前现有法规上的“擦边球”，让一些品牌能够更容易地在当地分销，这是目前国家还没有正式规范“精酿啤酒”标准的短期做法。
98% of all
legal craft beer in China falls under one of these three models. So you can see
that because of this current situation of bifurcated legal pathways to
distribution and brand growth, some craft beer in China is good, some is great,
and some is not so great. But you can also see the spirit of determination that
has grown in China over the last five years. We are getting very close to a new
era in craft beer licensure that will usher in with it a new generation of
problems, and growth. Truly an exciting time in our short history.
98%的中国精酿品牌的运作都属于前面三种模式中的一种。因此你可以看到每个品牌在分销和品牌发展的不同路径。一些品牌发展得很好，一些却谈不上成功。另外，你也可以从中看出过去几年在中国要发展一个成功的精酿品牌需要付出多少的决心。我相信我们即将迎来有“精酿啤酒”牌照的时代，这会引出新的问题，但也同样会带来行业新的发展。这将会是让人兴奋的行业时代。
Q) The last
few years—China has seen some sort of boom in terms of various people getting involved
with all kinds of imports—grey imports for that matter---how has that affected
the scene?
This is a
loaded question. I think you knew that when you typed it out. So I’ll be brief.
Grey market importers are assholes and shouldn’t be supported. Overpriced,
expired or unlicensed beer is a sign of growth in a market. It won’t stop the
Chinese consumers desire to find a better lifestyle. It will only take
advantage of that quest’s developmental period.
The other
thing that very few people are talking about in terms of misleading the Chinese
consumer of craft beer, is the market positioning of Anheuser Busch InBev and
their portfolio of recently acquired crafty beers like Goose Island, Elysian
etc. These beers aren’t defined as craft in America, where they are from, so
putting them on a boat to China and then launching them as “craft” is
irresponsible. ABI doesn’t care about establishing craft in China. They are
getting their asses handed to them in America and are trying to correct those
losses on their spreadsheets by entering China under false pretenses. If grey
market distributors are assholes and shouldn’t be supported, what, oh what are
we to do with a multinational corporation that is lying to the Chinese public?
Time will tell I guess. I would only ask so-called beer geeks to stop
supporting Anheuser Busch InBev products, it makes you look like amateurs.
Support local craft.
简单来说，利用非正规渠道进口啤酒来售卖的人都是混蛋，应该被抵制。出现高价的，过期的和非法进口的啤酒都是市场需求在不断增大的现象，但这不会影响中国消费者期待享受一杯优质啤酒的渴望。这些非法进口啤酒的现象不会长期存在。
说到误导市场，有另外一件很少人谈及的情况，就是百威英博把他们旗下的“特色啤酒品牌”，如Goose Island, Elysian 等，用精酿啤酒的名义进入中国市场。如果一个品牌在美国当地已经不再是属于精酿啤酒，那它们来到中国后，怎么可以就神奇般地成了“精酿啤酒”呢？这是一种不负责任的欺骗。百威英博毫不在乎建设健康的中国精酿市场。它只寄希望用这种偷换概念的做法来让财务数字变得更好看。如果在灰色市场中赚钱的人应该被抵制，那对于百威英博这种对公众撒谎的大企业应该采取什么态度呢？我真心希望那些所谓的精酿“极客”不要去支持百威英博的这些产品，因为这会让你显得很业余。请支持真正的本地精酿。
Q) Theoretically—when
more varieties/beer styles are available in the market---It would help to
enhance drinkers’ appreciation level—hence making it a better market—but it
seems with that many different beers coming into China these days---the market
is more in a state of confusion than moving forward?
First, this
is a transition period. During these periods I tend to stand on the side of
optimism. The days of the 煤老板 are coming
to an end. That is to say an uneducated but moneyed class of people that just
want the most expensive thing on the menu to express social affluence, not
taste. The anti corruption campaign has done a good job in putting this culture
to bed, but so has the reality that you can’t throw your money around like it
is infinite. Eventually you stop buying the chrome Ferrari and start thinking
about a sustainable consumption lifestyle. Right now, people just know one
thing, “craft” is a word and they hear often and people keep saying it. But
eventually it will be about what is in the glass that matters, not just the
label on the bottle. Gray market beers are not as good as the same beer
distributed through legitimate channels. The quality disparity is obvious. This
isn’t a Chinese consumer problem, it’s a shitty media/education/bar owner
problem. The best way to change this into something proactive is for actual
creators of craft beer to make better beer than what is available on the
shelves. Fresh, local beer is always preferred when talking about the best
representation to a growing market.
首先，这是一个过渡期。在这个阶段我倾向于保持乐观。只追求最贵的东西的“煤老板”消费时代和思想已经过去了。政府的反腐行动很好地遏制了这些非理性消费的不良风气，人们开始思考一种更具持续性的消费方式。现在，“手工”这个词收到追捧，但是消费者最终会更关注和了解啤酒喝起来的质量，而并不是单纯瓶子上写着“精酿”就会买单。灰色市场上的啤酒就是比正规渠道进口的啤酒质量差，而且差异是明显的。目前的市场混乱，这不是消费者的问题，而是市场教育，某些不够专业的媒体，和一些酒吧老板共同造成的问题。
帮助市场朝着健康方向发展的最佳途径，是去努力生产酿造比现在货架上能找到的更好的啤酒。新鲜的，本土的精酿啤酒更能代表一个发展中的市场。
Second, I
couldn’t be happier with what Beijing has come to represent to Chinese craft
beer. There are more breweries and styles available now, just in Beijing, than
there were in all of China just three years ago. That’s amazing. Everything
else will catch. There is no greater motivator to make a great product than the
constant threat of going out of business. When you build a brewpub you are
putting a factory inside of a restaurant. It doubles your build out time, it
doubles your property size requirements and it increases the stress on
performance. It really is a great motivator to lead, follow or get the fuck out
of the way. There will be something like 25 brewpubs in Beijing by the end of
this year, there will be 15 by the end of next year. That’s not an expression
of pessimism, its just the truth. After that period of decline, we’ll start to
see what China’s craft beer rise will really look like.
第二，我对于北京整个精酿发展感到非常高兴，它越来越能代表整个中国精酿市场。现在有众多不同风格不同规模的精酿品牌涌现，单在北京本地的精酿品牌的数量，就比三年前全中国加起来的要多。这非常让人振奋。其他的一切也会变得越来越好。经营者每天面临着可能被市场竞争淘汰的风险，是努力制造好产品的最佳动力。当你在建立一个精酿酒吧时，意味着你在建立一个酿造小工厂在店里，意味着的你的开店时间要比普通的餐厅酒吧更长，需要的店面面积要更大，随之面临的各种压力也更多。但这是一种很好的动力--要么你成为行业引领者，要么你被淘汰出局。今年年底估计会有25家精酿酒吧在北京，也许到了明年就剩下15家了，这不是悲观，而是现实。等结束了未来一轮的大浪淘沙，我们再来看看中国精酿啤酒真正的崛起是怎样一派景象。
Q: There’s quite a lot of brew pubs
in China that sells own beers---generally speaking---are these brews comparable
to International standards or there’s much work to be done yet?
As in any new and burgeoning market,
some people are making world class beers and some people are not. But
regardless, no one is perfect and there is always room for progress and
advancement from all. As long as they focus first and foremost on the quality,
everything else will come up as a result. Anyone can sell one beer to one guy,
once. It’s a sign of quality when they come back for another.
正如每一个快速发展的行业，有些人致力于打造一流产品，但也有一些人不是。但是不管怎样，没有人可以说自己的东西是完美无瑕的，永远都有进步和提升的空间。只要大家的注意力和努力方向都在提高质量上，其他的成功会随之而来。一杯精酿啤酒只有一次机会去打动消费者，只有质量好，才会有回头客。
Q) Also –the
home brew game seems to be picking up in China—are we seeing a healthy trend
here?
As craft
beer is taking off in China so is the home brewing scene. Previously, there
were hardly if any reference materials for home brewing translated into
Chinese. Recently, both in hard copy form and on online platforms like We Chat
and Weibo there have been more and more sources emerging in both English and Chinese
language. Furthermore, whereas when we first started we had to construct our
brewing equipment ourselves as online delivery services, such as Taobao, had
not yet taken off, nowadays people who want to home brew in China, both foreign
and Chinese, have ample access to the necessary components for brewing. We just
need to see a maturation in Chinese homebrewing. The trend of a homebrewer
selling his beer to the general public, goes against the entire purpose of
novice brewing. In a country that is so concerned with food safety, I’d rather
not have professionally brewed beer confused with a beer that was brewed at
someone’s home and was mascaraded as craft beer. America is a great example of what
that delineation needs to be. People seeking to make profit off of the passion
of homebrewers are a lower class of human being. There is something pure and
innocent about brewing beer just to give away to friends. The minute you start
asking for money, you stop being an amateur and you are susceptible to the same
regulations and the same punishments as a larger craft brewery or commercial
brewery. Which, in China, is not a risk I would ask of someone that is
fermenting their beer at home.
家酿潮流是随着精酿啤酒一起来到中国的。以前，在市面上基本找不到任何可供家酿爱好者参考的中文翻译资料。最近，从纸质材料到网上的社交平台（如微信，微博等），都涌现出越来越多的中英文家酿啤酒参考材料。在过去，我们需要自己来制作家酿的相关设备，过去网购什么的都没有发展起来。现在的爱好者幸福多了，他们可以有很多不同的渠道了解和购买这些酿酒设备。
但现在存在家酿爱好者向公众售卖他们的啤酒的现象，而且有越来越多的人这么做。这种势头是完全违背了家酿的本质。在一个对于食品安全非常敏感的国度，我非常不希望专业的精酿啤酒与家酿啤酒混在一起。美国是一个很好的范例，它把两者的界线划得特别清晰。将家酿啤酒售卖给消费者是一种低端的行径，这跟单纯将自己的热情和爱好分享给朋友是完全另外一回事。当你开始要卖钱的时候，就代表着你已经不再属于业余爱好者的范畴，代表着你需要与其他专业的精酿酒厂一样，受到相关商业法律法规的约束，与承担风险。
Q) Understand
that there’s a group of geeks who have been fascinated by craft beer and been
actively promoting craft beer by setting up brew pubs/ bottle shop—or by
publishing books---organizing seminars-work shop-----Is the market /newbies
being lead in right direction?
First, you
need to have an industry to lead in order to be an industry leader. A handful
of dedicated breweries across a market as big as China isn’t something that
will be definable in its current condition. So people can self-publish books or
lead conferences or make claims, but the only thing that matters is that your
product is selling to a non transient, static consumer who has other choices,
but is dedicated to your brand due to quality and reliability. I was having
this conversation earlier this week with a friend in the industry, basically
what we have now is an echo chamber of upstarts and small brands that are all
struggling to find that big payoff they were hoping for, and as a result have a
lot of time on their hands to get together and reverberate the same empty
bullshit over and over again. The social
media landscape is peppered with low value activity that is pretty insular and
really just bounces around the same handful of accounts echoing 我们的精酿就牛逼了我们的精酿就牛逼了我们的精酿就牛逼了, but in Great Leap’s case the people
that talk about us isn’t this limited group, it is our consumers, media and
international peers, and that is exposure and promotion that actually has
contextual value.
Right now,
the only thing that matters is that this industry is not going to remember
bullshitters as industry founders and bedrocks. Its going to remember people
that change public perception, regulations and international opinion. The first
and the last of those have already started, as a result the regulatory bit will
come along.
首先，得有一个成型的行业，才谈得去当一个行业的引领者。在中国如此大的消费国度，存在几家大的精酿酒厂并等于现在就有了成型的精酿市场。目前，人们可以去出书，组织什么行业会议或者去吹嘘什么，但真正重要的是消费者，消费者最终只会为有质量，可信赖的品牌买单。我前几天才跟一个行业内的朋友讨论起这个话题，我们目前看到的更多是一堆暴发户，进来这个圈子想要赚钱，还有一些小品牌互相抱团，联合一些啤酒社交媒体账号，重复地呼喊诸如 “我们的精酿牛逼了”等空洞无用的话。但是，能成为消费者，专业的媒体与国际同行这些群体谈论的话题，才是有意义有价值的。
这个行业并不会去真正记得那些夸夸奇谈的人，那些能够改变公众对精酿啤酒认知的，能够改变政策法规的，能够改变国际上对中国精酿的看法的人才会被行业记住。以上的第一点和第三点已经逐渐开始取得成绩了，第二点也会随之而来。
Q) The “no
drunk no home” style of drinking culture is quite popular in China when it
comes to anything alcoholic---are we seeing that happening more often than
usual in craft beer bars--or more people treating craft beer as something for
taste rather than gulping?
Everyone has
their own pace of drinking. With craft beer, the ABV is generally significantly
higher than industrial brands, meaning people in general consume less in
quantity because they just get drunk faster. Another thing, the price for craft
beer is generally higher than industrial brands, so for many people the
experience at a craft beer bar is much different. While the purpose might still
be to get fucked up, tasting, sampling, and appreciating the beer rather than
just throwing it back is also an important part of the experience. Like I said
earlier, there is less of a prohibitive or judgmental culture towards drinking
in China. As a result beer isn’t looked at as alcohol, rather its seen as what
you drink when you take a break from the hard stuff. That being the case I
think it’s a comfortable position to be in as a bar owner. Things rarely get
out of hand, and when they do, the other customers help self regulate.
The idea of
tasting for pleasure is developing in lock step with the idea that its ok to
drink socially, at your own pace, just for pleasure. It’s a beautiful thing to
witness.
每个人都有自己喝酒的节奏。精酿啤酒的酒精度高于工业啤酒，意味着人们消费精酿的量会比工业啤酒少，因为喝精酿会比较容易醉。还有，精酿啤酒的价格一般高于工业啤酒，所以对于很多人来说，精酿啤酒吧内的体验是很不同的。虽然有可能很多人的目的还是要灌醉自己，但是品味、尝试与品鉴啤酒还是整个体验的重要方面，这完全不是喝完就吐的饮酒方式。就像我之前提到的，中国对于饮酒并没有很多禁忌和批判。啤酒并不只被看作是酒精，而是可以成为一种你忙碌一天后犒赏自己的饮品。在大跃，很少有人喝得酩酊大醉招惹事端，就算发生此类事件，其他的顾客也会来帮忙调停。单纯为了身心愉悦来品尝啤酒和有节制的饮酒风气正日渐盛行，我很开心看到这样的趋势。
Q) 6 years
and going strong in China—what has Great Leap done right? And what might be
some of the things that can be done better?
I’d say the
most important thing we have done correctly is always focusing on producing and
selling a quality product. This instills trust and faith in our guests, which
is why they continue to return, as well as helps us continuously attract new
clientele, both Chinese and foreign.
我们所做的最重要的事情，就是我们始终如一的专注于产品品质。这使大跃赢得了客人的信任。对我们啤酒的品质信赖，是中外顾客重复光顾大跃的最主要原因。
Some of the
things we could’ve done better would be to no have wasted our time on draft
distribution in 2011, but if we hadn’t had that failure, we wouldn’t have
learned from it and found our long term success. I also think that I could just
be nicer in general. I have a very low patience level for people that enter my
market and waste opportunities. I don’t like empty words. The all of a sudden
experts, fairweather craft fans and opportunistic businessmen are what almost
killed craft beer in America in the late 90s, seeing that happening again here
makes me really upset. So some days I wish I could be nicer and more patient to
help China avoid that near future, and some days I’m happy that my general
gruff demeanor and relative success keeps those people in the periphery and out
of my day to day purview. The only thing I can hope to do is give Chinese
consumers access to high quality beer, so they can demand it every where else
they go.
我们曾经在2011年浪费了一些时间在分销我们的啤酒到其他店上，但如果不是走了些弯路，我们也不能最终找到一条能长期成功的道路。另外，我也许应该变得更友好一些。但我对一些行业的捣乱者非常容易失去耐心。我很讨厌别人讲空话。在美国90年代末，正是那些伪专家，投机者差一点毁了美国的精酿啤酒市场。看着这些事情正在中国重演，让我感到难过。有时候我希望我自己能够有更多的耐心来与这个行业的人交流更多，共同避免中国的市场重蹈覆辙，但有时候我对我自己有这样的“坏脾气”感到高兴，因为这样可以把那些“伪专家”们隔绝在我的生活外。我希望我的时间都只花在能让中国的消费者在中国喝到越来越多的有品质的精酿啤酒上。
Q) In very
simple words---how would you tell a newbie to give craft beer a try? Or how to
appreciate craft beer?
The
important word here is “craft.” When one hears this word, it imparts a
connotation that the product is not only quality, but honestly made by the
hands of its creator. So for craft beer, you are drinking the hard work of
generally just a handful of individuals who are simply trying to make people
happy. I think that says it all. Support local craft, demand that it improves.
这里，“Craft 手工”一词最为重要。当你听到这个词，你就知道这款产品不只有质量，更是由创造者手工制作出来的。所以对于精酿啤酒，你喝下的是一小撮希望制造愉悦的人的辛勤劳动。我想这样就说明了一切。支持本土精酿，期待它越来越好。
