It was back in early 2016 when this column/blog had a chat with Chef Dan---few months after Upstairs quietly in operation late 2015---it was never going to be an easy ride with the fine dining+ beer pairing idea---not when the general consensus of wine & dine is so deeply rooted in most people's mind.
*you can check the previous chat here:-
啤酒和米其林星级餐厅美食，在绝大多数人脑中根本起不了联系，对很多人来说啤酒就只是啤酒，没什么美味层次可言。不过凡事有例外，这个刻板印象被曼谷一家从一开始就坚持啤酒搭餐，完全不提供葡萄酒的CASUAL
FINE DINING餐厅狠狠打破了。
UPSTAIRS餐厅2015年底从寂寂无闻开业到2017和2018连续2年得到米其林一星认可，多年前放下芝加哥米其林三星餐厅副主厨光环在曼谷从零开始的美籍韩国人DAN
BARK师承大厨CURTIS DUFFY，曼谷餐厅虽说位于曼谷“米吧”楼上配啤酒理所当然但也逆水行舟，毕竟美食配葡萄酒刻板观念根深蒂固。
“顽啤主张”2016年初和CHEF
DAN对话过，能感受到啤酒搭餐概念的艰难，几年后的如今，看CHEF
DAN怎么说：-
Good thing is---there's always exceptions to general consensus---from late 2015 to now early 2019---the beer pairing concept is still the theme for Chef Dan's fine food---in fact it worked so well Upstairs won 1 Michelin star two years in a row(17 & 18) ---firmly establishing a strong footing in the ever competitive Bangkok culinary scene.
3 years plus and counting---what has changed or not changed since then and has it in anyway the Michelin star influenced them? had a chat recently with Chef Dan, here's the full version:-
1)
2years in a row one Michelin star restaurant --what has changed in terms of
customers perception/ acceptance level of beer pairing?
- The acceptance level of beer pairing has definitely
increased. I believe people are more open to the idea and the true
foodies are seekers of flavors so they are more open to trying new flavors even
in beverage side.
问1：
连续两年获得米其林一星认同有助改变食客对啤酒搭餐接受度？
答： 接受度有明显提升，对啤酒搭餐概念有比较开放态度，喜欢美食的食客追求的是味道层次，包括喝什么。
2) Do you still have customers asking for wine list?
- Yes we still have lot of people asking for wine list. I
don't blame them though. Wine have been the beverage of choice with fine
dining for decades. It's only natural to seek what we are used to.
But the important part is that more guests are now willing to give craft beer a
chance. That is all we can ask for and it's my job to not disappoint
them. That is the pressure and challenge we have to carry everyday.
问2：还是有食客问说有没有葡萄酒搭餐？
答： 是的，还是有许多食客问。这是能理解的，毕竟葡萄酒搭餐由来已久，这几乎是好多食客惯性问题。重要的是，有更多食客愿意尝试啤酒搭餐，这是餐厅日常需要面对的挑战。
3) The star recognition-- has it in some ways help to reduce
stereotype about beer being too boring/cheap alcoholic beverages to be worthy
of being served at fine dining restaurant?
- I believe there are lot of boring/cheap beers out there just
like there are lot of boring/cheap wines also. The important part is
whether it is beer or wine, our guests deserve the best so we must pour the
best and most exciting beer we can get our hands on. I believe the
Michelin star recognition has helped confirm that we won't serve boring/cheap
beverage.
问3：米其林一星认同有没有某种程度上改变食客对啤酒只是廉价无趣饮料，跟美食不配看法？
答： 就像葡萄酒也有廉价无趣版本那样，啤酒的确也有那样的，我们只会挑选当下最好匹配的啤酒搭餐，也相信米其林星级认同说明了我们不会提供廉价无趣啤酒。
4) On average, what might be the ratios of diners opting for
beer pairing vs those who do not want beer(for whatever reasons it might be) ?
- It's around 50%
问4：选择啤酒搭餐跟不喝啤酒食客大概什么比例？
答： 大约50巴仙，各一半。
5) Looking back and going forward, what would be some of the
bigger challenges trying to make fine dine beer pairing a more commonly/
readily accepted norms ?
-I think the bigger challenges will be economics actually.
The F&B industry is already saturated with wine. So many restaurants
and hotels are already heavily invested in wine that it would be hard for beer
industry to enter the market. I believe if it's strictly flavors, it
shouldn't be too hard to pair fine dining with beers. The culinary trend
right now is to have lighter, vegetable/herb focused, and balanced flavors on
the dish. These flavors will go better with beer. Compared to the
past where the dishes were more rich and heavy which wine would pair
better.
问5：回望前看，让啤酒搭餐概念比较普及化的主要挑战是什么？
答 最大问题在于市场经济效率，很多餐厅酒店都大量投资葡萄酒存货，意味着没有太大空间让啤酒打入。从味道层次角度来说啤酒搭餐并不难，当今饮食趋势注重较清淡均衡味道，这很适合啤酒搭餐，跟以前食物味道比较重口味时葡萄酒搭餐比较匹配概念成了对比。
6) You mentioned about not so into craft beer initially --
having been drinking some finer brew & more varieties of styles---whats
your view about beer nowadays and has that impacted your take on food beer
pairing ideas in anyway?
- Not really. I always just focused on flavors and it
wasn't about forcing something for the sake of it. We didn't do beer
pairing for the ideal of it because I just thought the flavors worked. So
it's still the same even after having tasted more finer brew. I just have
more options now ;)
问6：从开始不太熟悉啤酒到近年喝了不少顶级酿品，这些经验有没有影响啤酒搭餐构思？
答：并不会，注重食物风味是一贯思路，啤酒搭餐更多是因为跟食物风味匹配而做，近年是喝了些好酿品，要说有什么改变的话 或许是现在好啤酒选择更多了吧。
7) Visiting Copenhagen beer week and being at MBCC last year --
seeing brewers and geeks gathering up close --what's your impression/ thoughts
about this craftbeer comunity event of the year ?
- You know those movie scenes where some small guy walks into a
bar full of bearded biker gangs? That's how I felt at the MBCC last year.
But I had amazing time talking with the brewers and getting to know them.
They are very intuitive to flavors and have really good palette. And I
had the honor of meeting Daniel Cady, a brewer at Mikkeller San Diego.
We talked about beers and flavors and came up with Upstairs//Downstairs
beer which I think it's one of the best lagers I have tasted.
问7：去年体验了哥本哈根啤酒庆典这个啤迷年度盛事有得到什么感悟启发？
答 就像电影场景中身材瘦小的走进到处大胡子飞车党酒吧那样，是踏入MBCC会场第一感觉，跟不少酿酒师聊天交流，都是对味道层次有要求的人，也促成了跟米记圣地牙哥酿酒师合作，为餐厅酿造一款名为“楼上/楼下”的易喝可口浅啤。
8) From the year when upstairs first started to now, what sort
of journey it has been so far?
- It has been an amazing journey. The Michelin star and
getting our own beer made is awesome, but seeing the dining room full of happy
guests and watching our staff grow and improve everday is so much more
rewarding.
问8：从几年前开业到现在米其林加身，这是个什么样的历程？
答 相当神奇的历程，从米其林认可到拥有餐厅本身啤酒，看到吃得开心的食客还有餐厅员工成长都是乐事。
9) Going forward, what would be some of the things Upstairs
looking to achieve?
- Our motto is to be better than yesterday so just keep
improving everyday even in the smallest details.
问9：往前看，餐厅有什么想达到的目标？
答： 我们的座右铭是比昨天做得更好，会一直寻求进步，就算只是细微的。
10) to people who still think fine dine and beer does not pair
up or being sceptical -- what would you say to them?
- There was a time when people were skeptical of the New World
wine also. It took time and the new world actually making great wines
consistently for them to be accepted. I'll say give it a try but it's
ours and the craft brewers responsibility to deliver consistently.
问10：想对仍然对不认同美食啤酒搭餐概念的人们说什么？
答 就像以前新世界葡萄酒不受认可那样，有时候“新概念”需要时间证明， 会对不认同啤酒搭餐人们说请试试，当然餐厅和酿酒师们都要担起提供稳定水准美味的责任。
